So, Lester is attempting to give me a cyber-spanking on ideology.
That's all well and good. I put words out there so if someone goes for them, that's cool. But let me clarify me thiknking a bit if I may.
There are serious issues within the Black community that need to be addressed. I'm not saying people aren't already trying to address them, but the more the merrier.
So this is where I'm coming from.
If students need to be tutored, does it matter if the tutors are from "the left" or "the right"? No. In fact, when I tutored, there were people politically aligned "left" and "right."
How about the creation of Black businesses? That something Earl Graves, Sr.has been preaching about with Black Enterprise magazine.
Michael Steele has been an advocate of Black business as well. Why should their "left" and "right" leangings prevent them from working together to benefit Blacks who want to start a business or who are already owning a business?
So this is where I'm coming from. If there are things to do, and the "sides" agree, drop the labels, put the shoulders together, and do it. If the "sides" disagree, salute each other, and go along the respective paths.
Check out this opinion article by Robert Woodson, Sr that appeared in The Washington Post's Outlook section.
Then, a community activist named Falaka Fattah and her husband, David, discovered that the oldest of their six boys had become an active gang member. Fattah responded by inviting 13 of her son's friends and fellow gang members to come and live in their small row house, replacing the family furniture with mattresses on the floors. They established rules together that governed conduct, such as requiring that everyone go to school or to work during the day, and that everyone practice good hygiene. Because fighting threatened the whole family, they agreed to bring all disputes to an "Adella" -- a peace session where all the members would participate in finding a resolution and meting out punishment if necessary.
When word circulated that there was a sanctuary from the street, more and more young people sought refuge at the Fattahs'. The family purchased the house opposite and then another one next door with the wages the young men earned doing odd jobs, washing cars and making deliveries. They named their community the House of Umoja, which means "unity" in Swahili. The number of houses grew to five, then seven.
...
If these programs have been successful, why haven't they been embraced more widely by school systems and communities? The fundamental resistance is from people on both the left and the right who argue that these remedies come from "untutored" people -- individuals who do not hold advanced degrees. More responsive, however, are police officers, judges and parents who have seen violence firsthand and know how young people can be influenced by real neighborhood experts.
I know I'm spitting into the wind, but I guess I can be an idealist, while being pragmatic and realist.
"Automous collective" is an oxymoron, isn't it?
Posted by: DarkStar at August 21, 2005 10:17 PMYou are looking at the wrong thing. Your dependent variable is "level of work". Your central dependent variable is "ideology." The more ideological a person is, the less they are willing to do real work.
Before I go any further, am I getting you right here?
Posted by: Lester Spence at August 21, 2005 10:18 PMHmmm...
That's an interesting thing to think about. "The more ideological a person is, the less they are willing to do real work."
But that's not it.
Let me think about how to phrase this yet another way. Besides, infant is calling me...
Posted by: DarkStar at August 21, 2005 10:24 PMHere's what I'm talking about:
We have an internal third world, and we also have a second and first. The question is whether or not the first is competent to keep the first loyal to the state. When the answer is Wal-Mart, the answer is yes - by which I mean deliver a high material standard of living at the lowest cost, and to hell with the Starbucks Mentality. When the answer is education and housing, the answer is maybe not.
How many of our cities are going to work with the social presumptions of our bourgie middle class? When you have large immigrant populations for whom a 9th grade education is a success, what happens to the neighborhoods whose industrial base don't provide sufficient income.
What I'm saying is that there are Mexican Americans in LA high schools for whom dropping out is no shame. And what we call 'teenage pregnancy' might not be a big deal. This isn't about Mexicans, it's about America's ability to handle the life circumstances and expectations of people who are not and need not be middle class. We sick police on those folks. Not a good idea.
On the way back from Milford today, we were talking about Kwame Kilpatrick.. with the city near broke, how do you stimulate the dead city street? It simply occurred to me that you can't do much other than incent, but that if you can't direct your incentive you might be throwing good money after bad.
Fzample. We drove right by a new brick strip mall on 7 Mile drive. All the stores were not finished, and I wondered which businessmen / business families would be interested in being the merchants there considering the conditions surrounding. Of course anyone who has never been an entrepreneur would jump at the chance of a lower interest loan.. but what's the failure rate there? On the other hand, a rich businessman would have a better chance of keeping the business alive by definition, but that's not expansion.
what the hell were you in milford for?
Posted by: Lester Spence at August 21, 2005 10:59 PMthat's where the picnic was. A lot of people seemed to be asking the same question - why the hell are we in Milford
Posted by: Cobb at August 22, 2005 12:19 AMIf I step on any toes so be it;let me understand this correctly a Detroit High School reunion ,the picnic in Milford."How you stimulate a dead city".
Posted by: tootsie at August 22, 2005 10:15 AMAnn Arbor 2020? At this rate, by 2100, the reunion will be in Chicago. :)
I'm sure there's a good reason for having the event in Milford. Let us know when you get a lead. Thanks.
Posted by: Temple3 at August 22, 2005 11:31 AMI am not privy to urban legends of Detroit, so I can only guess at the 'problem' with Milford. Some people complained that it was too far out so they'd have to leave early to catch their planes. Somebody else suggested that we were there because other city parks were too ghetto. I was indifferent. It was a very nice picnic.
That was the third event, the first was a reception at an old victorian home on east Grand Blvd, and the dinner dance was the Embassy Suites over near Fishbones.
Posted by: Cobb at August 22, 2005 12:17 PMGlad to finally see the data, courtesy P6. Seemed like the unspoken obvious to me, since along about the first time I heard an idio-logical simpleton utter the invective lib-rull as though they were casting a terrible aspersion.
Posted by: cnulan at August 22, 2005 01:18 PMhence the inability of black conservatives to advocate policies and practices for white folks that they preach, jackleg and all, to black folk...ain't no bridgin' the gap...at least not until black folk control a few industries to feed and protect our young and old...
Posted by: Temple3 at August 22, 2005 01:35 PMbtw, a cyber-spanking is overdue. this issue is nonsense...there really is not much to discuss.
Posted by: Temple3 at August 22, 2005 01:36 PMI retract my last post - with the qualifier that the question of utility for black folk be at the center of the discussion...but it's all quiet on the african front...still waiting to hear about the real world value proposition of the conservatives.
Posted by: Temple3 at August 22, 2005 02:11 PMThere seems to be a persistant conflation of usefulness embodied, for example, in the idea of Michael Steele collaborating with Earl Graves. wtf does Earl Graves or any other serious black binnisman need with the likes of Michael Steele?
When those who Work feel the need to field political ho's to work a corner, there are plenty enough to be bought and deployed as needed. Anybody believing that preachers, politicians, pimps, or program managers do anything more useful than extracting excessive quantities of food, oxygen, and attention out of the ambient environment - needs to get their head examined.
Posted by: cnulan at August 22, 2005 02:17 PMThat sounds like conservative contempt for government. Straight up Republican. But then it begs the question of what is government good for - a deep philosophical one to be sure. If the answer is that it is a necessary evil, that borders on libertarianism. Lose 'necessary' and your anarchist.
But if government is not to be trusted, then what part must it play in the black question of 'raising the race'? Perhaps just as a bully pulpit to excoriate those who would trust it too much?
Posted by: Cobb at August 22, 2005 02:35 PM...or too little.
Ed, here's something else for you to consider.
I live in Baltimore. From what I've been able to gather, YOU live in or near Baltimore.
Why haven't we met?
I was taught by my older fraternity brothers that when visitors come to my town, that I work to make sure their needs are taken care of. And that I reach out first to do this.
This is old school.
Where you have pre-existing ties, those ties are strengthened. Where you are creating NEW ties, you are building new relationships. Whatever the case, your ability to do work should increase (as host), and the visitors ability to do work (either in or outside of that shared space) should increase.
When I went to Los Angeles, I told Mike I was coming. Though I'd known Mike for ten years at least, I had never met him in person. Had only heard his voice a couple of times. But when I came, he was one of the many people who took care of me. This, though Mike and I have some distinct political differences.
I haven't heard hide nor hair from you since i've been here. Your thing is about getting work done right? What does ideology have to do with THIS?
Posted by: Lester Spence at August 22, 2005 02:59 PMThat sounds like conservative contempt for government.
Nice try mayne...,
It's actually nothing besides studied contempt for a neuticled mouthpiece like Michael Steele. If a republican black shot-caller is ever going to appear on the national scene, it'll only be with the backing and authorization of a black agro-techno-industrio-amusement cabal...,
There's enough money in black hands - at this very moment - to make it so. However, there's nowhere near enough substantive intrapolitical unity or economic autonomy among those same $$$$ stakeholders to make such a thing come to pass.
Posted by: cnulan at August 22, 2005 03:31 PM"The more ideological a person is, the less they are willing to do real work."
Thought about this one and I've decided that I'm undecided on this one. I tend to think the more ideological, the more involved.
with the qualifier that the question of utility for black folk be at the center of the discussion
For me, that's the key.
wtf does Earl Graves or any other serious black binnisman need with the likes of Michael Steele?
If they are in Maryland, a lot since he has the ear of the local government and may do things to help get government out of the way or grease some skids to get things done.
In the case of Earl Graves, I was thinking it would be the other way around. Steele reaching out to Graves. It was Steele who reached out to Russell Simmons a few months ago at the Hip Hop Summit.
Anybody believing that preachers, politicians, pimps, or program managers do anything more useful than extracting excessive quantities of food, oxygen, and attention out of the ambient environment - needs to get their head examined.
Business spends too much money on politics for them to get little to no benefit. The bankruptcy reform changes seems to be a key example. However, in general, I agree with the premise.
I live in Baltimore. From what I've been able to gather, YOU live in or near Baltimore.
Why haven't we met?
I live 1/2 way between Baltimore and D.C., with family in Baltimore.
I haven't heard hide nor hair from you since i've been here. Your thing is about getting work done right? What does ideology have to do with THIS?
No, that's straight bad manners on my part.
It's actually nothing besides studied contempt for a neuticled mouthpiece like Michael Steele.
During the last administration, Gov. Glendenning, a Democrat and 2 term gov., promised to increase the number of Blacks taking part in the "set aside" program in Maryland. During his term, the best Black participation in contracts was 2%. After a reform of the program, lead by Steele, 3 years into their administration, and the participation level of Black business is 12%.
Black Dems politicans in the state are caught butt out on this one.
blah, blah...blah, blah...blah, blah
yada, yada, yada...yep, sho' you right. and um, ya know, like y'all was sayin'.
what does any of all this have to do with what republicans/conservatives can SAY to black folk that are like, "y'all's full of shiite." r/c's are talkin' stuff that has no real world application...it sounds like bostonian-theoretical-harvardesque-worldbankphonic-neoconiwonderwhatthislookslikeintherealworld-stuff...like decontextualized prescriptions for martians or any other group of folks that don't have to make their way in america...
why should anybody listen to conswervatives/reps? what's the value proposition? who has lived the value proposition? is this a faith-based operation? should cons/reps be told to STFU?
maybe y'all should holla at lashawn or somebody else...not to share the standard bs, but to drop the stuff that is applicable to black folk and useful in the real world - and has been tried and proven true by your cauc sponsors. holla.
Posted by: Temple3 at August 22, 2005 09:34 PMThe reason I'm not really interested in black conservative visions vs. white supremacist reality (here anyway), is because I'm more interested in seeing Ed's model. It does not appear to have been thought through. If it isn't ideology that causes people to do less work...then this whole "conservative liberal black people can't afford" garbage can be tossed and we can talk about more substantive issues.
Like the disjunct between black conservative prescriptions for black people (don't rely on the government) and white conservative reality (use the government to fund the military, and corporate enterprise).
Posted by: Lester Spence at August 23, 2005 07:08 AMLes, shoot me email. ed dot darkstar gmail com
Posted by: DarkStar at August 23, 2005 07:14 AM"The more ideological a person is, the less they are willing to do real work."
Thought about this one and I've decided that I'm undecided on this one. I tend to think the more ideological, the more involved.
Ok. So what does this mean for the position you've been taking? Ah. Here we go:
with the qualifier that the question of utility for black folk be at the center of the discussion
And you say here that this is the key for you. If it has no utility, then it is foolish...which is the crux of your argument right?
(pahdon me if this is in the wrong thread. we could prolly do with a wiki at some point)
"The more ideological a person is, the less they are willing to do real work."
Depends on if Ideology is taken as an intellectual excercise (matrix-creation as something to pass the time), or if it's the crystalization of an action-coda, an actual lifestyle or way of being.
Zealots, zealous ideologues, move crowds most. The rest of us (tho, I should speak for myself) slip on the jade lens and sit on the sidelines idly timing the jump off/in, or place bets on who'll first cross the futility finish line.
Not sure if we're saying quite the same thing, Lester, but opinion-leaders are a personification of some particular brand of ideology. They need a grassroots for support tho. The gods don't really exist if no one believes.
In any event, "conservative" and "liberal" are (ideally) only labels for particular angles of approach. Here's the big Q: are we headed for the same place? Can we decide on the goal-set and (lawdy) the priorities, fuss? We get that settled and lookout, nah. Sure, they'll spy our inexorable march on mecca. But we'll see their signal, too -- one if by hook, two if by crook.
We have a challenge to work against the very idea of the city. When the castle has no lord, the autonomus collective springs forward. I'm thinking of these things in Detroit. More later.
Posted by: Cobb at August 21, 2005 09:41 PM