Vision Circle

"...People who say that it will force the government schools to improve are either fooling themselves or are straight out lying..."

Government schools have endured or permitted several strikes against them: fraudulent teacher certification, fraudulent "self-esteem" student advancement, and a litany I needn't repeat here. Most of these CAN AND WILL be fixed when the handwriting is on the wall, and genuine competition exists; or else the taxpayer will say "ENOUGH ALREADY" and pull the plug. "The end of our schools as we know them" - yes indeed!

Most of these CAN AND WILL be fixed when the handwriting is on the wall, and genuine competition exists;

It's hand waving and unproven.

"One, does public school funding get cut for those students who remain in public schools? If so, is that a "fair" outcome?"

Yes that is what already happens, school budgets are determined by the number of students in them. NYC perfect example, kids go to private school public system doesn't get money from those kids in it. But its rich parents still pay the same taxes, so the money goes to upstate schools which are better and keep more people in them. (This unfairness has always existed and is not a voucher related issue)

"Two for those who stay, now what? People who say that it will force the government schools to improve are either fooling themselves or are straight out lying."

The quality of school is driven primarily by its teachers. There is no incentive for Unionized public teachers to preform. If the union starts to lose jobs because of reduced teachers need they will improve performance. And flexibility. For example in NYC parents can't raise money to pay for a part time music teacher because the unions would not allow you to pay someone else to work in the school as a teacher. Also its the good students that make teaching bearable teachers will work to keep good students in.

The post office is much better now, It didn't have overnight service until fed ex existed.

At the end of the day for the rural students the advantage of vouchers is that it destroys teachers unions, thus giving parents choice and control of their childrens educations.

I ask you one question, why do you think teacher unions fight pay for performance bonus ? Do you know any so called profession that would do that ?

Yes that is what already happens, school budgets are determined by the number of students in them.

That's what I understand. Now, the thing is, that has to be relayed in a way that says per pupil funding doesn't go down, although total funding may go down. That is not currently being said.

If the union starts to lose jobs because of reduced teachers need they will improve performance. And flexibility.

Well, right now it appears to be the opposite.

Unions will protect the jobs of older members, putting the younger members out to dry. The recent trend seems to be to create 2 pay bands: one for experienced workers and the other for unexperienced workers.

For example in NYC parents can't raise money to pay for a part time music teacher because the unions would not allow you to pay someone else to work in the school as a teacher.

In Maryland, when parents raise funds, if it exceeds a certain amount or if it's earmarked for teaching positions, the money raised is forced to go into the general education fund. This was done to prevent the "unfairness of more well off schools" being able to get more than less wealthy schools.

The post office is much better now, It didn't have overnight service until fed ex existed.

Actually, it's not better at all. Costs are still up and their service doesn't match FedEx or UPS for next day.

Do you know any so called profession that would do that?

Police and fire unions.

Police and fire aren't considered professionals. No college etc. They are closer to trades.

And the fact that post office doesn't match UPS doesn't mean that its not better than it was before. Any Express mail is better than none. Especially if you are in a place without local Fed ex.

And per pupil funding may go up. Since vochers are never the full amount of money given to the public schools. So the public school may recieve 2/3 of the money and only give 1/3 in a voucher. That is all up to negotitation.

Unless of course Naacp uses the courts to say any vouchers are illegal, then no win win compromise can be made. That was my final straw.

I hope I addressed the issue clearly in this and in my trackback.

"...Costs are still up and their service doesn't match FedEx or UPS for next day..."

A few decades ago, I observed that a highly automated long-haul communication service (LD telephone) was priced more expensive per unit than a low-tech labor-intensive competitor (Post Office). I predicted this situation would reverse before long.

It has. Deregulation/competition in phones brought the unit cost WAY down, and deregulation/competition in small package delivery has forced USPS to acknowledge its true costs.

Meanwhile, across the border in Philly:
http://www.rppi.org/privatizationproducesgains.shtml

There is a significant problem with that article. It notes an increase in scores, but makes the equivalent of a leap off a cliff when it posits that privatization is the cause. Can you say "alternative hypothesis?"

I'm all ears.

competition in small package delivery has forced USPS to acknowledge its true costs.

By raising stamp prices, again. By offering 2 day delivery that isn't guarenteed. By sponsering the U.S. bicycle team. By using its special status to try to prevent UPS/FedEx/etc from being allowed to be offical carriers. (For example, a post office cancellation stamp by 11:59 PM on Apr. 15 still means your tax return is on time. Not so if by FedEx and company).

And their costs are still way out of line.

I'm all ears.

For example, in Baltimore the public schools scores have increased as has the precentage of students passing. What isn't noted is that the test was made easier. What has been noted is that some teachers teach the exact test. Others coach the right answers during the test. Some have advised students who are expected to do poorly to stay home during the tests since they aren't made up.

So far, vouchers and charter schools have shown to provide mixed results. But that's fine as far as I'm concerned. The options are important.

Two comments: The public schools are at least aware that competition exists, and they've got to look better. That's not much, but by itself, that's a sign of some intelligence.

But fraud in the testing? If true, the Baltimore taxpayers have grounds to fire the whole lot. If they don't, who is to blame?

Now let me see:

We have an FDA, and don't let Merck certify its own drugs safe for use. (Although, it was Merck's followup research that led it to pull Vioxx from the market.)

We don't let Boeing certify its own new models - the FAA does that. (Although, Boeing does a pretty good job of followup product support to fix field problems that inevitably occur)

But what/who is America's MOST IMPORTANT product? OUR CHILDREN! And WHO certifies their education? The same people who taught them?

NO! Tell me it isn't SO!

It is somewhat shcocking to see scott still pushing this foolish Voucher idea after I thouroughly explained it and the pitfalls of it, and left him speech less.

Read:

http://blackintrospection.blogspot.com/2004/11/vouchers-cruel-game-being-played-on.html